When Therapy Meets Jesus (with Dan Allender)
Curtis talks with the “elder statesman” of Christian counseling, Dan Allender, about how therapy has influenced the American church – in much needed and also problematic ways. They explore how therapy has provided an important place for Christians to bring to Jesus the real, hard, and sometimes traumatic realities of life – often in ways that the church could not. They also examine how “moralistic therapeutic deism” increasingly describes the actual civil religion of Americans.
For examples of great books by Dan and his lifelong friend, Tremper Longman III, consider these two classics: Bold Love and The Cry of the Soul: How Our Emotions Reveal Our Deepest Questions About God.
For the original description of “moralistic therapeutic deism” as the religion of American youth, check out Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers by Christian Smith and Melina Lundquist Denton.
Sponsorship details for Good Faith can be found here.
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I starting listening to this on my walk and had to come home so I could get paper and pen. I will have to listen several times for it all to sink in. Please have Dan Allender on again. Amazing words of wisdom. Thank you Curtis.
You’re welcome, Kathy!
Ok, I admit I am a fan girl since the very beginning with David French. The Good Faith podcast is Good News; listening each week gives me Hope in a world where it is sometimes (often?) challenging to find, and Joy! Thank you Curtis!
So glad, Julie – we all need those things!
One further question I would have for Curtis and Dan is this: My perception of how counseling is viewed in some Christian circles is that not only does it have secular roots, but that its superfluous. Counseling digs into the specifics and details of particular life struggles. But, the thinking goes, if you just meditate on the Gospel and what Christ has done for you and grasp it deeply enough, all your problems will go away. In other words understanding the gospel will vicariously solve all your other life problems even if you don’t specifically work on them or deal with them. Is there truth to this? How important is it to dig in deep on the specifics of problems and find techniques to work through and deal with them versus just focusing on the big picture of the gospel?
Hi Ryan: I think when you read the Gospels, you see how Jesus interacts with specific individuals by digging into their specific individual issues in customized fashion. To the rich young ruler, he digs at his idolatry of wealth (Mark 10:17-27); to the woman with the flow of blood, he digs into and listens to her history of abuse (Luke 8:43-48); to James and John, he cuts to their misconception of power (Matt 20:20-28). He didn’t just tell all of these people to just meditate on “the big picture of the gospel” in a generic fashion. He digs into the specific dysfunctions of their lives. That’s the kind of God we have; in Jesus, we see a God who gets into the nitty gritty of our lives. I love that about Him.
Hello Curtis! I just finished listening to this episode. It made me feel very elated to listen to. I’m a young man, recently married, and am a domestic violence counselor for a secular organization. The idea of therapy and the church is not one I am unfamiliar with, but I loved Dan’s approach and overall joyous nature. I really connected with his own description of abuse and the outside influences that brought him to Christ. I just wanted to say thank you and Dan. As someone working with others with deep psychological, physical and sexual trauma, it can be difficult at times and it’s easy to feel alone. It’s also easy to feel disconnected from other Christians who do not understand the spiritual healing that can come from therapy. Podcasts like this make me feel more connected to God, His people and my purpose in the work I have. (also, excited for your book!)
1. Please tell me the name of the movie mentioned at the end of the podcast by Dan.
2. This podcast brought me great JOY! I first came into contact with Dan Allender in 1996 in Cartagena, Colombia, through his book “The Wounded Heart.” A Colombian friend and I read through it together in Spanish with tears and introspection as we sought healing for her, and in the process God worked deeply in my heart as well. Changed my life in so many ways. This podcast was the first time I’ve heard him speak. Thank you, Dan, for bravely writing that book. You brought hope and healing to two Christian women from very different cultures and also a friendship that is going strong to this day (though we are now 3,724 miles apart).
I love this podcast and the interchange between the two of you. I was left with a question about “hope”. Dan said “the nature of hope will always kill you if what you hope for… It will get you in trouble, it will create a different structure against the status quo, and it will open your life to a level of heartache that you could not even begin to imagine.” And at the end you said “if we really got in touch with what we hope for, that is a painful and deeply disturbing experience.” hmmm… what I REALLY hope for is for people to turn their faces to Jesus, to repent, and to love. Where is the pain? Maybe in how unrealistic that is? Not sure I follow this train. Thoughts?