This week David and Curtis help us look at leadership and what it is about certain leaders that seems to resonate so deep in our souls. Why does President Zelensky’s stand in Kyiv inspire us? Is it possible that a man who claims no Christian identity can be bearing the image of God? How do we recognize these images while not falling for the temptation of idolatry and worship of leaders as false images? Join us for this fascinating and timely discussion of the spiritual power of leadership.

David and Curtis talk to Tish Harrison Warren, an author, Anglican priest, and writer for The New York Times. Their conversation about prayer gets very real, as they first talk about prayer in wartime. Then they move back to the American cultural struggles, and discuss the disturbing tendency to compare peace to war and the toxic effect on our lives and hearts.

On today’s podcast, David and Curtis tackle Christian nationalism. What is it? Is it an ideology? A theology? An emotional, visceral connection? Or some combination of all three? Then they talk about healthy patriotism and how to love your national home, warts and all.

David and Curtis talk to Dr. Derwin Gray about his career path from college football to the NFL to seminary and, ultimately, to the founder and pastor of Transformation church, a multi-ethnic congregation in South Carolina. Dr. Gray talks about his new book, How to Heal Our Racial Divide and David and Curtis ask him about political and racial tensions in church, critical race theory, and how he proposes reaching a church that's polarized on political and racial grounds.