While Curtis is still on sabbatical, David talks to Justin Giboney, co-founder of the AND Campaign, about racial justice, political tribalism, and the “God gap” in the Democratic Party. They discuss the problems with left and right as they grapple with extremism, and they talk about Justin’s experiences talking about hot-button topics from a politically heterodox (but theologically orthodox) point of view.

David talks to Georgetown professor and Bush administration alum Paul Miller about Paul's new book, “The Religion of American Greatness: What's Wrong With Christian Nationalism.” Paul defines Christian nationalism, discusses what's wrong with it theologically, what's wrong with it politically, and how it invariably leads to conflict and illiberalism. They also discuss Christian underrepresentation in the academy and other elite spaces, including its causes and consequences.

David talks to Scott Sauls, an author and pastor of Christ Presbyterian Church in Nashville, Tennessee. They talk about handling the exhaustion of the current moment, whether winsomeness "works," and the challenges facing pastors in the face of relentless criticism. They also address Scott's prescient warnings about the dangers of culture war obsessions--warnings that date well before the present extreme polarization.

This week Eboo Patel, a Muslim pioneer in interfaith work, joins David and Curtis to discuss his book, We Need to Build. They discuss the need to allow people of different faiths to be able to bring their whole selves, including real and significant religious disagreements, to these conversations. Eboo also helps us understand why it is so important to do more than criticize what we don’t like in the culture, but instead to adopt the more mature approach of actually building what we want to see in society.