Our good friend and partner in The After Party project, Russell Moore, joins us to talk about his new book, “Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America.” Curtis and Russell talk about why “mapping” our loss is critical for those who currently feel culturally, politically, or spiritually homeless. We explore two kinds of maps – the “treasure map” and the “minefield map” – and why Christians need both.

This excerpt has been edited for length and clarity.

CURTIS CHANG: I want to talk constructively: What are the steps forward for a typical reader who feels alienated from the church? One thing you recommended is openness to new relationships. In this place of spiritual homelessness, we have lost old relationships. We no longer feel like we have a tribe. So we have to be open to new relationships, but that’s challenging. 

You illustrate this beautifully with the story of your relationship with Beth Moore. Tell us that story – what did it take to build that relationship?

RUSSELL MOORE: Well, Beth Moore, of course, is a bible study teacher, leader, speaker. And when I was a very young man, I would critique Beth Moore. When someone would ask me about her, I would say, “I think that she’s a gateway drug to feminism in the church.” 

CURTIS CHANG:  Didn’t you write that in print somewhere?

RUSSELL MOORE: I don’t know if I wrote it in print, but I know I said it!

I considered myself to be in a completely different evangelical tribe than Beth. I certainly saw her as a Christian and did – even then – respect her as a Bible teacher. 

But as time went on, a lot of these old coalitions that I believed were so strong shake apart and these new, very close friendships came together. Beth and I were both going through the disorientation of the 2016 evangelical world together, and were both perplexed, saying, “How is it controversial to say that sexual assault is wrong?” These sorts of things. 

There were a lot of people in my life who, when there was controversy, you could see them almost physically step back. Like, “Hmm, I don’t know Russell Moore. Maybe I knew him at some point,” until they saw what was going to happen. And then they’d be back once things settled.

Then you had people like Beth. We understood each other, having been through this. She was praying for me every day, encouraging me every day. And we realized we’re actually on the same team.

I thought, “I’ve wasted a lot of years not learning from you. Not just learning from you in the ways I always would’ve known were your strengths, but learning from you as a theologian, as someone who has a serious depth.”

I think that’s happening to a lot of people, and it’s a biblical thing to happen. I mean, you have Simon Peter – he’s thrown into the situation with Cornelius he never would’ve imagined. That happens over and over again in scripture. 

It’s easy to lament the things we’ve lost, the relationships we’ve lost. I still do. Something happened the other day that was funny about somebody that I’ve known for a long time, and my first impulse was to call someone to say, “Did you hear about this?” And I remembered, “Oh, that person doesn’t speak to me anymore.”

A lot of people have experienced that, no matter where they stand on things. It’s easy to see that. It’s not as easy to see the new sorts of realities that God has for me.

CURTIS CHANG: Yeah, and that is an exciting part of this moment that we need to be open to. The old tribal loyalties and divisions are being scrambled and lost.  And the essence of creativity is when new connections are made that haven’t been made. And it seems, if God is doing a creative work, it will be through connecting previously disconnected relationships. 

I mean, Russell, we’ve only become friends in the last few years. We were in slightly different tribal corners of American evangelicalism and during the vaccine work, I first realized, “Wait, Russell’s doing this? I should talk to him.” So, I’ve experienced that personally.

RUSSELL MOORE: I can only speak for myself in this, but when these new connections form I then need to ask, “What caused me to think of this person – who’s obviously resonant in the exact same sort of mission – as being in some other tribe? What caused that?”

A lot of times, those are the things that need to go – not necessarily the specific disagreements, but how we see the splitting up of the boundaries between people.

CURTIS CHANG: Just reflecting on that question in our friendship, I think I always associated you as, “Oh, you’re the Southern Baptist Convention guy. The SBC guy. That’s just not my world.” Now you’re not that guy. I guess that’s part of the rescramble that enables us to do a project together like The After Party.

RUSSELL MOORE: I’m going to help Curtis out.

[both laugh]

CURTIS CHANG: I’m sorry that it was such a painful way for us to become friends.